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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2009 : 23:54:52
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LOL! Nice post nomo - thanks for all the attention to detail. So it's all about Apple Envy, huh? These people aren't satisfied producing amazing technology, they need to build empires.
oion there was always a good reason Fujitsu owners rarely switched to Averatec - similar form, nice price, but way too plain! |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 08:16:47
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I was hoping the $1900 version of the Vaio P (1.86GHz CPU, 128GB SSD, 2GB RAM) would outperform netbooks running the 1.6GHz Atom. Initial test results show the PCMark05 scores to be equivalent. Seems the graphics capability of the Vaio P brings down its total score. I suspect the 1.33GHz Vaio P models available in the US don't compare very favorably. It will be interesting to see how well the benchmarks translate to real-world responsiveness.
................PCMark05....GHz Processor.......GMA........RAM
HP Mini 2133.........801....1.6 Via C7-M......Chrome9......2GB
Asus Eee 701.......1,132....0.9 Celeron M.......900.......512MB
Asus Eee 900.......1,172....0.9 Celeron M.......900........1GB
Fujitsu P1610......1,245....1.2 U1400 CS........945........1GB
Lenovo S10.........1,446....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
LG X110............1,463....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Sony Vaio P........1,476...1.86 Atom Z540.......500........2GB
HP Mini 2140.......1,489....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Asus Eee 901.......1,496....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Asus Eee 1000H.....1,512....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Asus Eee 1000HA....1,527....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Acer Aspire One....1,555....1.6 Atom N270.......950........1GB
Fujitsu P1620......2,113....1.2 U7600 C2D.......945........1GB
Fujitsu P1630......2,820....1.2 SU9300 C2D.....GS45........1GB
1.86GHz Vaio P Benchmarks
................PCMark05.....Vista Exp
Overall:..........1,476.........3.0
CPU:..............1,659.........3.4
Memory:...........2,438.........4.2
HDD (SSD):.......11,271.........5.7
Graphics:...........262.........5.9
3D Graphics:....................3.0 |
Edited by - nomo on 01/19/2009 08:50:25 |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 09:00:19
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HP Mini 2140 Review (NotebookReview)
  quote:
Originally posted by NotebookReview
Last year after we reviewed the HP Mini-note 2133 we said, "If HP decides to replace the VIA processors with the new Intel Atom processors or alternative processors from Intel, the Mini-Note would become the undisputed champion of the subnotebook market." The truth is the Mini 2140 comes very, very close. If HP hadn't lowered the resolution of the screen in the base configuration of the new Mini 2140 this netbook would easily be an Editor's Choice.
As it stands now, if you're willing to put up with the lower resolution screen the Mini 2140 is probably the best netbook on the market. However, if you're willing to wait for HP to offer a higher resolution screen later this year you will be even happier.
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Edited by - nomo on 01/19/2009 09:02:07 |
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tmt
Advanced Member
2763 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 10:01:04
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Are any of these machines fanless? The netbooks, that is - not the Sony.
Tom. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 18:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by tmt
Are any of these machines fanless? The netbooks, that is - not the Sony.
Tom.
Oh, I just perked up at that idea. That's assuming the engineering is designed to be fanless (like the ancient Transmeta constructs), not just removing it for whatever reason and then risking the entire machine to unreasonable heat (I think later Panasonic ultras had that problem?).
As for the HP Mini 2140 quote... eh, I'd probably be fine with a 1024x576 res on a 10.1" screen. But they give a 1366x768 display option too, anyway. From the HP site:
quote:
The simple, refined design and all-aluminum case make it sleek, sturdy and lightweight. Features such as HP DuraKeys, magnesium alloy support structure, and HP 3D DriveGuard make a durable mini-note PC that can go the distance.
Whoa, it's not 100% plastic? That in itself might be new. Starting at $500 for a better build doesn't seem like a bad idea. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 18:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
LOL! Nice post nomo - thanks for all the attention to detail. So it's all about Apple Envy, huh? These people aren't satisfied producing amazing technology, they need to build empires.
oion there was always a good reason Fujitsu owners rarely switched to Averatec - similar form, nice price, but way too plain!
Pfft, if you want to talk about Apple envy, there's Windows 7.  But anyway--when I said they all looked pretty much the same, I meant overall build specifications, not merely style (which I suppose is true too). I mean, the Panasonic ultras had the nifty new round touchpad, Sony had some ridiculous case composite engineering, Fujitsu had bay options...
In branding, the main advantage I see is warranty, not just accessories. I don't know how customer service is with the truly low-end netbooks and whatnot, but I wish people would keep that in mind. |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 22:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by tmt
Are any of these machines fanless? The netbooks, that is - not the Sony.
I believe some of the netbooks using the small Intel SSD are fanless. (example: Dell Mini 9)quote:
Originally posted by oion
Pfft, if you want to talk about Apple envy, there's Windows 7.
I agree that the inspiration for the Win 7 GUI is pretty clear, but hasn't Apple done its fair share of "creative borrowing" too? |
Edited by - nomo on 01/19/2009 22:23:53 |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 22:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by nomo
quote:
Originally posted by tmt
Are any of these machines fanless? The netbooks, that is - not the Sony.
I believe some of the netbooks using the small Intel SSD are fanless. (example: Dell Mini 9)quote:
Originally posted by oion
Pfft, if you want to talk about Apple envy, there's Windows 7.
I agree that the inspiration for the Win 7 GUI is pretty clear, but hasn't Apple done its fair share of "creative borrowing" too?
Hm, well, I'll try to keep an eye on the fanless ones too. Silent computing is always nice, in my opinion, and fanless goals tend to promote more efficient engineering as well. And yes, both Microsoft and Apple are hardly innocent in innovation-borrowing (I made the general remark in the Windows 7 thread), though I think there's been more borrowing from Apple design than vice versa. In both software and hardware these days, however, it seems true innovation is quite rare. People who have been tracking the various industries long enough can cry foul at a marketing ploy (e.g. Firefox and tabs), but the average consumer hardly knows better.
Heck, to get back on topic, I'm sure some people still think "netbooks" are innovative. Pish.  But we've been through that. |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 13:40:27
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The HP Mini 2140 is now available for order. Prices range from $499 to $779 for pre-configured models. The overview page lists both display resolutions (1024x576 and 1366x768) but the models available for sale don't make a distinction.
In other news, Engadget posted video of the new Eee PC touch interface and photos of the Sony Vaio P in the wild.
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 14:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by nomo
The HP Mini 2140 is now available for order. Prices range from $499 to $779 for pre-configured models. The overview page lists both display resolutions (1024x576 and 1366x768) but the models available for sale don't make a distinction.
Alrighty, I admit it: My eye keeps darting over the "made out of aluminum!" bit. That's a clear distinction from the other plastic chiclet boxes, at least from what I can see (I read somewhere that the 2133 was also aluminum, eh). I have a 2.5-lb aluminum keyboard that I use between my desktop and P-7k, which I can say is pretty sexy and very tolerant of my piano-reflex abuses.
But I digress, again. Anyway, 7 hours? They sure improved the battery numbers since I checked last year when these things first got popular in the summer. Well, I suppose that's with the bulky 6-cell battery. (C'mon, let's kick the re-evolution further and make it an inch bigger and give it a bay.  ) That touchpad looks completely horrendous, though. |
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tmt
Advanced Member
2763 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 21:12:31
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You can see the HPs at retail pretty easily, I was impressed with the one I saw at Staples
around the holiday. Apart from the rather pedestrian hardware specs, they're pretty
nice little machines. Obviously, they're sliding up the curve though, and somehow keeping
the price down. Since much of the cost comes from the processor (Intel) and operating
system (Microsoft), I think I know who's feeling the pinch and dropping their retail
margins.
Tom. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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tmt
Advanced Member
2763 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2009 : 08:31:53
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Yes, I said "except the Sony", mainly because I don't count it as a netbook.
It really annoys me that after all this castration to get the price down to a few
hundred bucks, we still have to put up with a fan to carry away wasted energy,
add noise and make it thicker and less reliable. Sigh.
Tom. |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 10:37:20
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I didn't find any information about the HP Mini 2140 being fanless specifically, which is sad. I think the vast majority of laptop consumers wouldn't notice that particular detail, whereas many of us here, having romped in Transmeta-land for a while, consider it an actual specification detail that implies both heat and noise output and thus more efficient design. At least I'd love to see mentions of a fan in the spec tables.
quote:
Originally posted by tmt
You can see the HPs at retail pretty easily, I was impressed with the one I saw at Staples
around the holiday. Apart from the rather pedestrian hardware specs, they're pretty nice little machines. Obviously, they're sliding up the curve though, and somehow keeping the price down. Since much of the cost comes from the processor (Intel) and operating system (Microsoft), I think I know who's feeling the pinch and dropping their retail margins.
Tom.
Yeah, I linked to an article I think on page 4 of this thread that commented that Intel is basically the winner in all of this, and because netbooks cut into the laptop market beyond vendor predictions, they're all unhappy about the margins. At least, the big vendors like Dell/HP/etc. are, because the smaller ones like Asus have a better margin. Heh. Intel was pretty evil in pulling out of the "One Laptop Per Child" program that was aimed at poor nations, instead selling their chips to the small Asian vendors to drum up interest and competition for a niche they conveniently coined. Because, y'know, Intel just really wants to make money, and once they realized they had developed half-decent technology, they can't do that with a nonprofit program. (Yes, I'm more willing to believe the nonprofit than Intel in that complete bungle.)
There was even an article somewhere commenting on the Windows XP thing and how Microsoft was making very little money as well due to the margin (I guess they were licensing WinXP for below market price, although technically XP should be dead for Vista). I'm guessing Microsoft is going to try to shove Win7 faster through the pipe to address that particular issue, because they're definitely not making that much money off either WinXP or Vista on netbooks. And who knows how long this fad is going to last?
Eh, originally AMD wasn't going to get involved, but I guess they are now with that Everun, but still only one model? I'm more willing to plunk for AMD than Intel if they had more competing products in this niche. (No, I'm not going to plunk down any money, just saying.) At least some reviews out there mention heat and noise.
Make a slightly larger "netbook" screen with AMD chip, aluminum chassis, no fan, long battery life, then come back and we can talk. |
Edited by - oion on 01/22/2009 10:41:35 |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 20:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
" What's Microsoft's Next Move In Netbook Game? "http://www.crn.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?articleId=212902058
Speaking of which...
$32 or less for WinXP on a netbook! I knew they were cutting their prices just to get on netbooks, but that's pretty steep...downward.
What's interesting is that all this price maneuvering is reactionary. This is my guess: I think we can bet that Win7 will be cheaper than the previous licensing incarnations of Windows. The lowest end will be in OEM agreements for netbooks, but I don't think Microsoft would price up the desktop versions too high either: If consumers see that it's much more worthwhile to just buy a new netbook with Win7 than a new copy of Win7 separately, that's probably what they'd do; and then the business licenses would still have to be very competitive, because if they're that much expensive over home licenses, what's the point? Unless Win7 can come with far better business resources than a home version. Basically, M$ has to restructure against multiple variables that they're probably not used to.
Let's hope the product-pricing restructuring will be radical, but we'll have to wait a year for Win7. Or will we?
Clearly, Intel is still the one holding all the chips in their netbook game. Literally.  |
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nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 20:13:16
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It's open for debate whether Microsoft's woes are due to netbooks or other factors such as the global recession, low rates of Vista adoption, or other factors. I found this quote pretty interesting, though: quote:
Originally posted in What's Microsoft's Next Move In Netbook Game?
Microsoft won't stop selling XP on netbooks until June 30, 2010, or one year after the Windows 7 ship date, whichever comes later.
The market will be on Netbook version 4 or 5 before XP is forced into obsolescence. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 21:09:40
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The netbooks issue combines with the lack of Vista adoption pretty well and ironically, I think, although certainly not completely (since Vista wasn't popular long before netbooks, yes).
Oh yes, good point on XP. I saw that too and failed to fully assimilate the XP stretching. Why, they were supposed to retire that beast, what, 2007?
Meanwhile, I wonder what Linux will be doing on those netbook iterations. This really is a good opportunity for it. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 14:35:05
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Considering all we've said already about Sony / Apple marketing, this item on the 5000 job loss at MS caught my attention:
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200901222211DOWJONESDJONLINE001088_FORTUNE5.htm
Could it be said that Vista was originally issued anticipating a consumer and business purchasing spree of the necessary new hardware (which halted when everyone recognised the flaws in Vista)?
I didn't intend the referenced article to be off topic (netbooks) except all other analysis of the layoffs blame netbooks - while this one blames PC sales drop generally. Netbooks aside - if everyone has a working PC (with XP) why fix it if it's not broke? |
Edited by - NigelS on 01/23/2009 14:42:01 |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 17:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
Could it be said that Vista was originally issued anticipating a consumer and business purchasing spree of the necessary new hardware (which halted when everyone recognised the flaws in Vista)?
I didn't intend the referenced article to be off topic (netbooks) except all other analysis of the layoffs blame netbooks - while this one blames PC sales drop generally. Netbooks aside - if everyone has a working PC (with XP) why fix it if it's not broke?
Well, Vista came with quite a few preloaded compatibility items, IIRC, which helped contribute to its bloated overhead (ironically). I don't know if there were any wink-wink/nudge-nudge agreements between Microsoft and hardware vendors, though.
I think the multiple sources of difficulty from almost every quarter are best attributed to the failing economy overall, and the timing of netbooks didn't help. That is, I don't think Microsoft and other top-tier vendors could reap that much benefit from netbooks in the first place, and as a secondary effect, netbooks cut into other product markets thanks to the overall economy too (as noted in previous articles, yes). They were supposed to be purely ancillary products, after all. So I don't believe netbooks alone caused layoffs in the high-tech industries, but they probably exacerbated things, particularly in Q4 '08.
I'm not feeling so much pity for them, though, because the entire U.S. is feeling quite the pinch in lost jobs; it's pretty sobering when the mass media always compare it to the Great Depression.
As for the fix/broke--if people had a decent amount of dispensible income, it's a luxury they can afford. And the computer industry can be very persuasive in marketing to convince people that they "need" an upgrade of this or that, buy this new game, etc. Overall, it comes down to either productivity or entertainment: In business, so long as international technologies compete and innovate, there will always be windows for "upgrade for higher productivity and make more money!" arguments (this may include simply "We fixed all the problems with the previous iteration" arguments). Likewise, gamers and other folks who are only after the entertainment aspect have reason to upgrade various parts on that pure performance luxury (visuals especially).
Those of us who are neither convinced by nor require product-based productivity "increases" and those whose computerized entertainments are simple with low overhead will definitely steer clear of spending with that kind of ain't-broke reasoning. Especially with this current economy. For those people, I suspect netbooks are still ancillary and will have no quarter on the table this year.
Hmm, I had a point somewhere, but maybe your question was just rhetorical. *rambleramble* |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 14:53:47
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Hmm, I had a point somewhere, but maybe your question was just rhetorical. *rambleramble*
- no - not rhetorical! -
The CNN item ties MS to PC comPLETEly - which sounds correct. Apple seemed to almost panic over this vulnerability in their own product line when they refocused their energy on music sales & gadgets (and succeeded massively). Apple and Sony have very diverse and stable product lines whereas MS has the Windows + Office workhorse (plus their various other anemic ideas & poorly selling "me too" products.) If the business-world were to adopt Vista as a desirable product, the MINIMUM hardware purchase would have to be RAM (and on a massive scale). Windows OSs and PC hardware go everywhere together no question. MS must have been totally shocked to not see the whole PC industry get an anticipated and overdue massive-shot-in-the-arm when Vista failed to sell big. And the economy was still good back then. The netbook arrival is just another blow considering they have to pay people to take XP with them! MS has a giant marketing opportunity with the netbook, but it will take real creativity in their R&D sectors. |
Edited by - NigelS on 01/26/2009 14:56:10 |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 15:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
MS must have been totally shocked to not see the whole PC industry get an anticipated and overdue massive-shot-in-the-arm when Vista failed to sell big. And the economy was still good back then. The netbook arrival is just another blow considering they have to pay people to take XP with them!
Double whammy. I just love it, don't you? But this sort of forced-market innovation should make M$'s products evolve more appropriately. I do appreciate that aspect of netbooks, though--it's far, far too easy to forget about the efficiency route when open-ended desktop hardware trends tend to promote no-ceiling computing.
Now watch that heat and get rid of the fan! |
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tmt
Advanced Member
2763 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2009 : 07:24:05
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You know, it seems pretty clear that the netbook is a classic disruption to the
ultramobile in the Clayton Christensen sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
My question is where will the new line be drawn? For me, the main things about the
netbook that make me not want them are the "short" screen (1024x600, etc), the general
lack of processor oomph (single core, Banias/Dothan type instruction throughput),
and generally the not-quite-my-primary-machine positioning.
OTOH, they're cheap and not at all gross plastic junque. The current crop of HPs, for
instance, look and feel pretty decent.
So, where's the split? Power users who travel light will still want the "larger"
machine, while netbooks will be scattered around houses like magazines? It's funny
because apart from the low price, the existing crop of netbooks don't seem to be
targeting the latter any more, they started out that way but now with Windows and
their limited capability, have rather pedestrian apps just kind of crammed in.
So what happens next for netbooks? Do they head further up-market and get more
horsepower, or do they do better at capturing the home and close-to-home user by
getting a better application integration story? Is that really Windows 7?
Just wondering.
Tom. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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Netbooks have arrived
