| Author |
 Topic  |
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2009 : 20:21:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
HP's six-cell battery for Mini 1000 offers twice the battery life -
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/27/hps-six-cell-battery-for-mini-1000-offers-twice-the-battery-lif/
Price and bulk: Quite a chunk out of the overall netbook price, and then the bulk would obsolete many a slim-type netbook case, I imagine. Nevermind weight, but I suppose that can't be helped. And a mere almost-6 hours.  The ol' P-series (the real Fujitsu ones, that is) have expensive bay batteries, yes, but they didn't deform the build and I can work comfortably for about 8 hours. But anyway.
What's weird with all this new portability popularity (in the States, anyway) is that battery technology doesn't seem to have caught up at all the past several years. |
 |
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2009 : 20:34:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by tmt
You know, it seems pretty clear that the netbook is a classic disruption to the ultramobile in the Clayton Christensen sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
Yes, Nomo commented on that too on the front page. At that point, I wasn't sure if it was going to be or not, also since peak sales numbers weren't in yet.
quote:
My question is where will the new line be drawn? For me, the main things about the netbook that make me not want them are the "short" screen (1024x600, etc), the general lack of processor oomph (single core, Banias/Dothan type instruction throughput), and generally the not-quite-my-primary-machine positioning.
I'm opting for door #4 myself.  Although whether or not the line will be completely obliterated for a full repeat evolution remains to be seen; perhaps the performance line will remain as people who really only use netbooks to take notes and Web surf don't demand that much more. Also, I suspect optical drives will never make it in, come to think of it. However, once again, the manufacturers and vendors themselves provide much of the impetus in one-upping each other for technological upgrades, even despite what consumers want/need.
As for primary machine--that comes down to what the target audience demands, of course, so someone like me could make the P-2040 and the P-7230 as my primary machines (quite the difference in performance, even).
quote:
OTOH, they're cheap and not at all gross plastic junque. The current crop of HPs, for instance, look and feel pretty decent.
Weren't they pretty crap at the beginning of their evolutionary cycle last year? But I'm sure their mass-produced half-lives demand that improvements be made in build just for competitive reasons. I think HP 21xx is the only aluminum line, right? ("Junque," heh heh.)
Repeat evolution, baby. |
|
|
|
nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 01:39:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by oion
quote:
Originally posted by tmt
You know, it seems pretty clear that the netbook is a classic disruption to the ultramobile in the Clayton Christensen sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
Yes, Nomo commented on that too on the front page.
Ah, yes. The good old days when Netbooks 2.0 were being introduced. Here's what I said last July:quote:
Originally posted by nomo
I'm not sure how disruptive it's going to be. The first problem is that as netbooks move upmarket they compete with full-feature notebooks that provide much better performance and value. The second issue is that as big computer companies release similar products it becomes less likely that any market incumbents will be displaced.
As the third generation of netbooks hits the market, I'm somewhat surprised at how few manufacturers offer upmarket option packages. Seems most companies have taken the vanilla approach with minor variations across products. The good news for consumers is that fewer options means higher volumes of base components which builds economies of scale for the OEM suppliers and helps to maintain price stability with new product generations. Hence, the 10" netbooks now being released aren't demanding significant price premiums over previous models.
I think my second comment from last July still holds true; not too many PC makers are being brought to their knees by failure in the netbook market (not yet, anyway). As expected, though, there's been a general drop in revenue and margins with the shift to the low end of the market. This trend has certainly been amplified by the general decline in the economy.
Another aspect to the emergence of netbooks is the strategic positioning of Intel and Microsoft. Even if the Wintel brothers complain publicly and blame netbooks for their current economic troubles, the reality is things could be even worse for the two companies had they elected to stand on the sidelines and watch netbooks evolve with Via processors and Linux operating systems. (Nine months ago the only netbooks on the market were the Linux-Celeron Eee PC and the HP 2133 with a Via CPU and Linux/Vista OS.) So far Intel and Microsoft have sidestepped any potential disruptions to their market dominance. It will be interesting to see how Via and Linux position themselves as the downturn continues.
From a product perspective I'm looking forward to seeing the hi-res HP 2140 and the 2150 with an upgraded processor. IMO the HP Mini offers the best combination of features, form factor, and build quality. It will be interesting to see how other PC makers respond. |
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 10:30:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by nomo
Another aspect to the emergence of netbooks is the strategic positioning of Intel and Microsoft. Even if the Wintel brothers complain publicly and blame netbooks for their current economic troubles, the reality is things could be even worse for the two companies had they elected to stand on the sidelines and watch netbooks evolve with Via processors and Linux operating systems. (Nine months ago the only netbooks on the market were the Linux-Celeron Eee PC and the HP 2133 with a Via CPU and Linux/Vista OS.) So far Intel and Microsoft have sidestepped any potential disruptions to their market dominance. It will be interesting to see how Via and Linux position themselves as the downturn continues.
From all the commentaries, however, it seems that Intel is still a solid winner versus Microsoft and the other vendors for the facts that it started the netbook trend to begin with, and Atom is a "new product" on a cheaper production scale, so Intel reaps the most direct benefits. I don't recall Intel complaining about this, and they wouldn't have reason to unless Atom is cutting into their other mobile chip offerings like netbooks have been cutting into subnotebooks/laptops (no idea). Via is no real competition to Intel in this particular arena because the performance differences are truly measurable, from what I could tell.
The difference in Microsoft's position is that Linux does provide a viable performance alternative, user interface notwithstanding (and software/file compatibility, but Open Office generally does a fine job). Moreover, WinXP isn't a step forward in manufacturing with a lower production cost like Atom is: It's a complete 1.5 steps backwards, considered "old," with the margin drop to match. So yes, Microsoft had much more to lose in not getting involved when they did versus Linux, but it's still not a great position because they could be making much more money if Vista had been viable on netbooks instead. Of course, all the chips are against that (literally). 
Because I think Intel still basically holds all the cards (unless something IBM-esque happens, which would be entertaining to no end), I think everyone else has been/will experience the disruptive influence more greatly. Of course, Microsoft hasn't been idle. Windows 7 is going to be interesting not for its technical innovations--which aren't--but what it does on netbooks in terms of pricing and performance despite Vista-like requirements in beta. After all, M$ is really like a parts manufacturer in the whole netbook scheme; ultimately, the name-branding system vendors still have the most to lose, and I'm sure they have.
The problem is that we can't measure the "intent" losses between a netbook and smaller laptop as consumers choose between them.
Ooooh, can't wait. Maybe this thread will still be going strong by the end of this year into early next year.   I'm cheering for Linux to take a bite out of M$'s ass even though I'm pretty much locked into the Win OS myself. At most, I could see myself dual-booting. And I still want AMD to bite Intel's ass too.
quote:
From a product perspective I'm looking forward to seeing the hi-res HP 2140 and the 2150 with an upgraded processor. IMO the HP Mini offers the best combination of features, form factor, and build quality. It will be interesting to see how other PC makers respond.
I wonder what the 6-cell battery looks like and whether it's flush. Honestly, if it had a trackpoint of some kind and slightly bigger/taller screen, I'd be all over it like hot fudge on a sundae (aluminum, yum!). Not that I'd buy it since I already have the P-7k and still my ancient, beloved P-2k. |
|
|
|
nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 11:54:00
|
Thanks for the reply. A couple points of clarification:quote:
Originally posted by oion
From all the commentaries, however, it seems that Intel is still a solid winner versus Microsoft and the other vendors for the facts that it started the netbook trend to begin with, and Atom is a "new product" on a cheaper production scale, so Intel reaps the most direct benefits... Via is no real competition to Intel in this particular arena because the performance differences are truly measurable, from what I could tell.
I think the boom in netbooks through 2008 can be linked to the Atom processor and Microsoft's willingness to continue licensing XP, but Asus started the netbook trend with the release of the Eee PC in October 2007. And even though the Via chip is inferior to the Atom, the HP 2133 is a very popular product with a non-Intel CPU. The point in my previous post is that the netbook market existed before the Atom and when MS was pushing Vista. Both companies decided to participate in a potentially disruptive market segment. This is significant because many entrenched companies ignore disruptive market forces until it's too late (e.g. the Big Three automakers and fuel efficiency in the 1970s, product quality in the 1980s, and fuel efficiency in the 2000s).quote:
Originally posted by oion
I don't recall Intel complaining about this, and they wouldn't have reason to unless Atom is cutting into their other mobile chip offerings like netbooks have been cutting into subnotebooks/laptops (no idea).
Intel may not have formally blamed netbooks, but the company is cutting costs and analysts have made the link to the growth in netbooks (among other factors): quote:
Originally posted in Intel to shut four plants, lay off 6,000 (Computerworld)
Amidst a bevy of bad news in the PC market, Intel Corp. took two corrective steps this week, aggressively slashing prices on chips on Monday and announcing today that it will close four chip plants and cut as many as 6,000 jobs.
Analysts laid the blame for Intel's actions on weak PC sales combined with tightfisted consumers choosing low-cost models such as netbooks. They also said impressive new CPUs from rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. were a factor.
|
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 15:08:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by nomo
I think the boom in netbooks through 2008 can be linked to the Atom processor and Microsoft's willingness to continue licensing XP, but Asus started the netbook trend with the release of the Eee PC in October 2007. And even though the Via chip is inferior to the Atom, the HP 2133 is a very popular product with a non-Intel CPU. The point in my previous post is that the netbook market existed before the Atom and when MS was pushing Vista. Both companies decided to participate in a potentially disruptive market segment. This is significant because many entrenched companies ignore disruptive market forces until it's too late (e.g. the Big Three automakers and fuel efficiency in the 1970s, product quality in the 1980s, and fuel efficiency in the 2000s).
Good points. Perhaps I was conflating the issue with Intel's actual coinage muscle, but I think we can all agree that they now control the market. (That Via subniche popularity certainly reminds me of Transmeta, as short-lived as that was too.) Microsoft stuck its foot in with XP but is trying to catch up with the future Win7, while Intel--well, let's look at the timing. What, exactly, happened between them and OLPC, and how did that figure into the blooming of netbook market share for Intel? Where was Asus's timing with all of that? Huh.
quote:
Intel may not have formally blamed netbooks, but the company is cutting costs and analysts have made the link to the growth in netbooks (among other factors): quote:
Originally posted in Intel to shut four plants, lay off 6,000 (Computerworld)
Amidst a bevy of bad news in the PC market, Intel Corp. took two corrective steps this week, aggressively slashing prices on chips on Monday and announcing today that it will close four chip plants and cut as many as 6,000 jobs.
Analysts laid the blame for Intel's actions on weak PC sales combined with tightfisted consumers choosing low-cost models such as netbooks. They also said impressive new CPUs from rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. were a factor.
Ah, well, that makes sense in the global view (especially PC sales on the whole). But yay for AMD. |
|
|
|
nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
|
|
nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 13:47:05
|
The netbook sales data is interesting. I didn't realize Acer was the market leader. The cut-off price for the analysis is $650 so the total HP 2133 sales are understated. I'd be interested to know what went into the five-year forecast and how much of the projected growth is in mature versus developing PC markets.
In other news: |
|
|
|
nomo
Average Member
812 Posts |
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 19:47:35
|
Disappointed in HP's Linux decision.
An Intel blogger had this to say about Win7 on netbooks, which is in-line with what the rest of us had been speculating, I suppose:
quote:
Currently, when Microsoft sells a license of Windows XP on a netbook, they're making very little money. They would have preferred to stop selling XP altogether a long time ago. But the low cost of an XP license adds very little to the overall cost of a netbook - important when you're selling a device for $300-$500. No one but Microsoft knows how much it will charge for the various versions of Windows 7, but it's safe to assume that it won't be much (if at all) cheaper than Windows Vista. And adding, say, $100 to the cost of a $400 netbook just to pay for Windows 7 is going to be a tough proposition all around.
Secondly, the footprint that Windows 7 leaves on the hard disk where it's installed matters on a netbook. On PCs and "normal" laptops, hard drives keep getting cheaper and bigger at an astonishing rate. So in that light, it would be understandable if Windows 7 required MORE hard drive space than Vista. Say, 6 GB (I'm making that number up, but it's pretty close to that in Windows 7 beta). But some netbooks are equipped with SSDs that only offer a paltry 4, 8, or 16GB of space, total. And given the hints that were dropped at PDC, I think people were hoping for a slimmer, lighter, smaller netbook edition of Windows 7. So while hard drive equipped netbooks should have plenty of room, those running SSDs will be cramped or even unable to install Windows 7.
Oh, by the way, the Windows 7 Starter Edition 3-app limitation is clarified in the vnunet article I also posted to the Windows forum:
quote:
"Anything in the notification area of the Windows taskbar doesn't constitute an application," he told me. Furthermore, having multiple document windows open in software such as Word or Excel will not count as more than one application.
However, there is a proviso. With tools such as antivirus, if the user then clicks on the icon in the notification area, this typically opens a new window to let you set options or commence a scan of the hard drive. This would then count as a running application, according to Painell.
Much has already been made about these limitations and the effect that it may have on the cost of netbooks. Various newswires have claimed that Windows 7 will bump up the purchase price of netbooks, because nobody will want the Starter edition.
The last comment about Win7 essentially being a Trojan horse was amusing... |
|
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 12:28:04
|
Netbook news is slow these days - here is one that is not so terribly interesting, but anyways - the Sony P will next adopt Corel technology for instant on internet connectivity. Is that good? Do we need more Corel technology? Not sure...
http://investor.corel.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=365461
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/18/corel-brings-instanton-technology-to-sonys-vaio-p/
I saw the P yesterday for the first time and I must say that 'up close' the bottom half has a lovely form factor and just as appealing as anything you've ever wanted in a sub. The display is a tragedy, however. The top part (the 'lid') is way smaller than the bottom to begin with - and the wasted space combined with the squashed (wide-screen / movie-screen) display was ridiculous once you started using it. It made me think instantly that loads of people will never buy this for themselves, but will receive it as a gift and will lose it in their closets and drawers 2 weeks after getting it. I found it completely and utterly useless.
(Just my own hyper-critical first impression - but I have not seen such a bad idea in ages. Perhaps the truth is that I'm too old. Our local news channel interviewed people on the street regarding possible Valentines day gifts - they showed the P as one possible. One woman said it could only be used by people under the age of 20.) |
Edited by - NigelS on 02/18/2009 12:31:37 |
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 21:01:29
|
Yeah, with that funky screen, it would seem Sony wants their Vaio-P to be primarily a movie-player-without-an-easy-way-to-get-movies-onto-it. Quick, let's torrent Sony movies! (I jest.) Meh.
Anyway, in the slow news/editorials:
"Intel has filed for a declaratory judgment against Psion Teklogix in order to continue using the term "Netbook" generically. Psion "purports to be the owner of U.S. Trademark Registration No. 2404976 issued on November 21, 2000 for the mark Netbook for use in connection with laptop computer"... Not surprisingly Intel and others, including Dell, don't agree."
A long history of subnotebooks, netbooks, mininotes, etc. (Hmm, failures?)
Why an Apple netbook is inevitable. (Huh, interesting.) |
|
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 15:21:49
|
News remains dull in the NBook arena, aside from the asinine fight over ownership of the term 'netbook' there are loads of listless opinions warning us that netbooks don't offer quality (well duh).
One neat hiccup in the arid desert of innovation though - is this thing http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/ |
|
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 12:25:14
|
| I started this thread hoping that the value of the Netbook would be in the contribution low end machines would eventually make to the design and price of high-end machines. Now that the economy has changed, it would seem that everything will remain on "pause" in that regard. That is unless someone like Apple decided to contribute to the mix: - http://www.digitimes.com/print/a20090309PB204.html Apple prediction reports are faithfully faulty mind you... |
|
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2009 : 19:12:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
Hilarious. Lenovo attempts to perform an end-run around the Sony P by making their Pocket Yoga a touchscreen:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/03/16/lenovo.pocket.yoga.teaser/
Ingenuity + uselessness = ?
PFFFFFFFT. 
That's all I can really say about that. Competing with Sony on the frivolous-nonusable-gadget front isn't terribly wise (for anyone).
Oh, and to finish your equation for you, the answer is "art." Put it under a glass case and start admirin' that $$$+ piece, eh.
My eyeballs are hurting just looking at some of these... |
|
|
|
NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
|
|
avservice
Starting Member
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2009 : 07:58:15
|
I have been using the Samsung NC10 next to my 1620 for almost 2 months now and I will say it is a nice machine.
I think the screen is the best I have ever seen on one of these tiny computers and the 1620 screen is just not very nice next to it.On the other hand(pun intended) no matter how many times I poke the Samsung screen,no windows actions are performed?
It is getting great battery life and the performance is very good partly I am sure thanks to the fast normal size notebook sata drive.
I am really impressed with it and there seems to be a touchscreen kit for it from eBay that some have tried that looks "interesting" too. It is only $100.00 I think?
So many computers,so little time......and money.
Ed |
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2009 : 23:44:42
|
Well, for the original retail price of the P-2k/5k/7k, many of the forum veterans could have purchased a small army of netbooks. Not that that would be terribly useful, but...
Since I already have a (two) full-featured subnotebooks, I'd never buy a netbook myself, but I might invest the same amount of money into a good e-book reader instead. Hmmmmmm. |
|
|
|
avservice
Starting Member
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 06:35:40
|
I thought the same thing but I can not seem to resist at least trying these to compare them to my full-featured machines.
I have to sat that both the 2133 and NC-10 have screens that simply "Smoke" any I have seen in this size range before.
Again aside from the fact that they are not Touchscreen.
They are much clearer,brighter and just plain easier on the eyes to me. The HP was amazingly well constructed but hobbled by its processor.
The Samsung is a very compelling package and the plastics are as nice as plastic gets on these.
When one popped up local to me for a decent price I grabbed it so I could see for myself.
I was on the road last month for 18 days with both the Samsung and the 1620 and I used the Sammy at the end of the day as the screen is less tiring to me.
I use the 1620 during the day as it is loaded with the software I need to work and in the bump case it is set to go. I also really like the convertable aspect when working on WiFi networks in the field.
All I am really saying is that some of these netbooks can not simply be dismissed,they are fairly nice and cheaper than the "Real" thing that brings us together here.
Ed
|
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 11:31:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by avservice
All I am really saying is that some of these netbooks can not simply be dismissed,they are fairly nice and cheaper than the "Real" thing that brings us together here.
Ed
It's a fair point, and the fact is that no one could dismiss them now anyway due to market forces. Last year this time, sure, but definitely not now. As mentioned earlier somewhere in this thread, many people wouldn't use all the features or "work" a laptop computer to its full capacity anyway, so netbooks can easily fill the void for basic usage. The price sticker is its strongest point by far.
The main sticking point for me is just usability. Some screens are obviously better than others, but some of the designs like those Lenovo/Sony things make me wince. The HP aluminum case appeals to people like me who aren't attracted to too much plastic.
Also, my irony senses are tingling.
As predicted, lines have been getting narrower to the point of obliteration between the "top-of-the-line" netbooks and subnotebooks. We're already at the point of repeat evolution, folks. And here's the latest news to show that bit!:
quote:
Asus Portable To Have Optical Drive: Still A Netbook? (PC World, 03/27/2009)
Taiwan's AsusTek Computer has played a major role in defining the netbook computer genre. Its Asus Eee models, along with competing mini-notebooks such as the Acer Aspire ONE and Lenovo Ideapad, have proven popular with consumers willing to sacrifice a few features -- full-size keyboard, larger screen, and a DVD drive, to name a few -- for a smaller, lighter portable that's fine for email and Web-browsing.
But Asus will soon break with netbook tradition by launching an Eee PC with a built-in optical disc drive (ODD). According to a DigiTimes report out of Taipei, the ODD-equipped E1004DN netbook will arrive next month, followed by the 1008HA in May. The E1004DN will feature an Intel Atom N280 processor, a GN40 chipset, and a 120GB hard drive. There's no word yet on screen size, but given that Asus has already announced plans to discontinue its 7-inch and 8.9-inch Eee netbooks, it's a safe bet the E1004DN's screen will measure at least 10 inches. The E1004DN will retail for about US$531 to $590, although I suspect street prices here may be a bit lower. The $600-range seems a bit high for value-oriented netbook buyers.
But does the netbook crowd really want a built-in optical drive? Asus certainly thinks so, and it's made some pretty smart moves thus far. Netbooks are popular with air travelers, many of whom watch DVDs during flights. For them, particularly those who aren't fond of digital downloads, an optical drive makes sense.
With netbook screens growing larger, and with mini-notes adding new capabilities such as optical drives and the ability to play high-definition video, maybe we need a new definition for the genre. What exactly is a netbook? A portable with a screen that's, say, smaller than 13 inches? A computer that uses the Intel Atom CPU? A notebook that's priced under $500? Ultimately, the term "netbook" may disappear altogether, like "LCD display."
So. What's the battery life on that?
My take? The price is the biggest factor in determining the netbook, but there's definitely an accepted "form factor" too, and much of that has to do with being bare-boned. That's not a "netbook" anymore. That's a very cheap, traditional subnotebook. |
|
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
|
|
oion
Advanced Member
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 14:29:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by oion
Windows now on 96% of netbooks (It would seem the Linux netbook success was a brief little fluke after all.)
And a counter from the Linux side.
Hybrid Wind Runs for More Than a Day on a Single Charge ("Because the U115 features both a traditional hard drive along with a solid state drive, it can use the low-power SSD for often accessed system operations and keep the juice-sucking HD spun down most of the time. over at the German site, Eee-PC.de, writer Johannes loaded up the Wind with a third-party nine-cell battery and fired up the testing software 'Battery Eater' and left it to run. The test began one evening and ran all night and day, finally finishing 25:04:16 later." So how much does that cost in total? Over $700, but that doesn't include the 3rd party battery. Battery life is terribly juicy.)
There has been more in the rumormill about Apple formally joining the netbook development craze, but it's still all just rumor until someone makes the formal announcement. At this point, I think we can all assume that an Apple 'netbook' will come, but I'm most curious if it will break the PC pricing barrier (minus the Sony silliness). |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Netbooks have arrived
