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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2009 : 16:04:56
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| This is a benchmark in the history of portable PCs - the day we see a Fujitsu 10" priced at under $1000. The reverberation of this could have far reaching consequences.... |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 11:15:54
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Where are we now?
quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
This is a benchmark in the history of portable PCs - the day we see a Fujitsu 10" priced at under $1000. The reverberation of this could have far reaching consequences....
Perhaps. I read that brief review of the Fujitsu netbook, and a short battery life really wouldn't cut it at all if true mobility is the majority-hype for the category. I'm sure they'll introduce a $200-300 6-cell or something to make up for the massive pricing differential against Fujitsu's normal sub/notebook lineup. The competition is ridiculously fierce otherwise, though, that I don't think it would make much of a difference. Oh, but consequences for how Fujitsu does business? I'm sure netbooks as a whole has punched around all the portable vendors this way.  Personally, a more industry-shaking benchmark would be Sony producing a "true" netbook for a half-grand. No, that idiotic bling-book does not count. Stupid Sony.
(In bigger-picture terms, I really can't help but feel the initial companies ended up shooting themselves in the foot by introducing the binding price range as part of the definition.)
I didn't recall seeing this in this thread, but the HP Pavilion Dv2 with an AMD chip may bridge the netbook/notebook gap in terms of both performance and pricing. It's more expensive than a netbook but performs better and has a 12" screen, and the battery life seems half-decent. Not fantastic, mind, but it does come with a 6-cell. Netbook? I'm not sure, since it clearly breaks the form factor mold, but maybe it's a subnotebook closer netbook pricing, really.
The third-to-last paragraph of that Dv2 article, however, had me scratching my head, since some of the latest research numbers certainly say that market cannibalization has had a significant impact; and basically, from that research, netbook sales are still going strong.
As a side note, I don't believe the optical Asus Eee has reached market yet, but I'm interested to see how it competes across the lines (I still refuse to see it as a true netbook anyway).
And finally, here's talk about Windows 7 versus XP in netbook pricing:
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The current price of Windows XP OEM version is only around US$25-30, but the latest quotes from Microsoft for the netbook version of Windows 7 is around US$45-55 and therefore first-tier vendors are unable to transfer the cost to the netbooks' sales price due to the fierce competition.
$25-30 for OEM XP and a stripped version of Win7 (we're talking about the version that only allows, what, three "processes" to run at the same time?) for only $50-ish. I'm interested in seeing where all that is heading. Huh. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 16:05:51
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Wait, did someone post news about the Kohjinsha SX3 here?
1.33 GHz Intel Atom CPU,
8.9" 1280x768 touchscreen,
integrated optical drive,
1GB RAM, 60GB HDD, built-in Wi-Fi,
4.5 hour battery
"Its inclusion of an integrated super multi-DVD module makes the Kohjinsha SX is the world's smallest tablet PC with a built-in optical drive." At $1100 from Dynamism, it's definitely not netbook-priced, but it's netbook-sized; the optical and touchscreen explain the pricing, I guess. Hrm.
Hurk--I just saw the pricing on the Sony Vaio TT. And then I looked over the page and saw the pricing on the Toshiba RX2. $5299.00 is testament that there's still development at that high range, I suppose (LED backlit, 512GB solid-state drive, lightest-notebook-with-optical!), but those high-end subs can't possibly be moving quickly to market. Oh, but I digress again.
LED-backlit, goodness me. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 03:09:12
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(In bigger-picture terms, I really can't help but feel the initial companies ended up shooting themselves in the foot by introducing the binding price range as part of the definition.)
Yeah - and it is making the whole topic newly dull in that there seems a plateau-ing of the R&D area. What's next? Brain-Storm marketing - check out the NetPal:
http://gizmodo.com/5292959/disney-partners-with-asus-on-netpal-eee-netbook-for-kids |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 03:36:42
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I didn't recall seeing this in this thread, but the HP Pavilion Dv2 with an AMD chip may bridge the netbook/notebook gap in terms of both performance and pricing...
AMD is really cool these days what with taking on the Intel monolith and all:
"...Just like your mom keeps telling you, AMD thinks netbooks are a bit of a fad, and is laying down a roadmap for thin-and-lights while keeping its distance from any sort of "Atom killer." The existing Yukon platform -- featured in HP's dv2 -- just got an upgrade in the form of a dual-core AMD Neo chip, but things will really start to get exciting later this year with the introduction of Congo, which will pair a dual-core Neo with much better graphics and a more modern chipset..."
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/11/amd-plans-congo-chipset-for-a-future-world-of-thin-and-lights/ |
Edited by - NigelS on 06/17/2009 03:37:33 |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2009 : 10:11:53
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Netbooks for children are stupid. The parents who bury their kids in electronics to keep them "busy" under the misunderstanding that it actually helps cognitive development have their own problems, perhaps. But I digress.
HP released a new model just today or yesterday, but who cares?
This is more interesting:
quote:
Study: Netbook Buyers Clueless About Netbooks
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According to a study by the NPD Group, 60-percent of consumers who purchased a netbook believed that their machines are the same as notebooks.
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While the lines between netbooks and notebooks are blurring, there is still a distinguishing line in the performance differences between the two. Even the fastest Atom processor is still modest compared to the entry-level Intel Celeron CPU, and so netbooks are by nature less powerful.
The confusion between the differences between what a netbook and notebook are capable of may have triggered some consumer dissatisfaction. NPD figured that only 58 percent of consumers who bought a netbook (but were shopping for a notebook) said they were very satisfied with their purchase. In contrast, 70-percent of consumers who planned on buying a netbook from the start were ultimately satisfied with their purchase.
Among 18- to 24-year-olds, one of the main target markets for netbook makers, 65-percent said they bought their netbooks expecting better performance, and only 27-percent said their netbooks performed better than expected, reported the NPD.
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But I guess even adult consumers are pretty dumb in some ways. I don't fault the nontechies, of course--obviously, heavy marketing isn't going to admit to the shortfalls of a product but rather "not mention everything about (it)." Plausible deniability?
quote:
展e need to make sure consumers are buying a PC intended for what they plan to do with it," said Stephen Baker, vice president of industry analysis at NPD.
Right. "Buy what you intend to actually use" should be the mantra of any smart consumer regardless of the product.
Well, interesting study. I assumed that people would figure out the toy-factor in these things, but I guess not! |
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nomo
Average Member
808 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2009 : 11:44:10
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A few "IMO" comments on the study: -
By definition mass market consumers don't research and understand products as thoroughly as enthusiasts. It's not surprising that a high percentage of buyers didn't get what they expected.-
With low margins on netbooks I doubt that retail sales reps down-sold notebook buyers into getting netbooks. Seems more likely that a lot of buyers were just looking for the lowest price. In a perfect world consumers would accept more responsibility for their misinformed purchases, but that's probably not going to happen. There's an opportunity for manufacturers to do a better job explaining the differences between notebooks and netbooks. (This would also make it easier to up-sell consumers to full size laptops.)-
Perhaps the mass market is starting to see the potential for full-function ultra-portable laptops.
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2009 : 11:39:20
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Netbooks for children are stupid.
Asus & Disney = frightening AND funny. I have never ever heard ANYthing good said about Disney by ANY parent in my lifetime (yet kids need their Disney / parents are weakened / addicted to electric baby-sitting)
I was in the shops this weekend and I have to say the new Dell and the new Toshiba make all the others look like 5-year old e-waste. (Yes - the new Dell!) Next week someone else will make the Dell and Tosh look "old". And so it will go until someone arrives with what looks like a 2009-10 version of a P2120 and we will be full circle. |
Edited by - NigelS on 06/29/2009 11:44:13 |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2009 : 14:35:02
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In the "What I Was Hoping For All Along" DEPT: A Hacker Will Lead the Way...
The bad thing thing about Netbooks? They are cheap. The good thing about Netbooks? No one is afraid to break one - ingenious hacker shows the Suits how to innovate by installing the tiny track-ball of an Apple Mouse right into the dashboard of an Eee PC Netbook. Works great. (...and is the most imaginative development all year...)
http://www.plastibots.com/misc/eee901/EEE901mightyMouse.asp |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2009 : 23:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
In the "What I Was Hoping For All Along" DEPT: A Hacker Will Lead the Way...
The bad thing thing about Netbooks? They are cheap. The good thing about Netbooks? No one is afraid to break one - ingenious hacker shows the Suits how to innovate by installing the tiny track-ball of an Apple Mouse right into the dashboard of an Eee PC Netbook. Works great. (...and is the most imaginative development all year...)
http://www.plastibots.com/misc/eee901/EEE901mightyMouse.asp
Wow. That is awesome. And so incredibly geeky. The positioning is a little weird--the P-2k's eraser nub thing's position is still the best, I think.
Still, I approve. 
quote:
Originally posted by nomo
By definition mass market consumers don't research and understand products as thoroughly as enthusiasts. It's not surprising that a high percentage of buyers didn't get what they expected.
With low margins on netbooks I doubt that retail sales reps down-sold notebook buyers into getting netbooks. Seems more likely that a lot of buyers were just looking for the lowest price.
In a perfect world consumers would accept more responsibility for their misinformed purchases, but that's probably not going to happen. There's an opportunity for manufacturers to do a better job explaining the differences between notebooks and netbooks. (This would also make it easier to up-sell consumers to full size laptops.)
Perhaps the mass market is starting to see the potential for full-function ultra-portable laptops.
All fair points. As for consumer accountability... All this kind of reminds me of behavioral economics. Right now especially, I have to agree that the majority of purchasing power is aimed at just dollar value, which, of course, is silly. I mean, people *still* get what they pay for, most of the time.
That last point--Clearly, the rest of the public is only ten years behind the curve.  Eh. It seems all the news and models have bled together otherwise. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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nomo
Average Member
808 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2009 : 10:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
Sony scrapes bottom and delivers a $500 10 inch counterpart to the TT - and calls it a "Sony Netbook"
Hey! A two pound computer with ten free pounds of bloatware!  As netbooks go it looks good; not much different from the hi-res HP Mini, though. Hopefully one of these manufacturers will add a modular bay some day.quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
Acer raises the stakes on the Netbook processor
One step closer to coming full circle in the ultra-portable life cycle. I'm curious to see whether the mass market moves away from netbooks or clings firmly to the low-end price tag. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2009 : 13:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by nomo
One step closer to coming full circle in the ultra-portable life cycle. I'm curious to see whether the mass market moves away from netbooks or clings firmly to the low-end price tag.
I'd count on the latter. Wal-mart with all its otherwise unethical dealings and overall reputation in crappiness (including services) wouldn't have survived this long otherwise.
(I still scoff at Sony.) I read this article about AMD in the netbook market, and it's interesting in that AMD still doesn't officially "endorse" netbooks, but their low-power chips are making their way into those chassies. Chassis. Whatever.
It would seem, actually, that netbook bundling with wireless services is the current hot trend, though that isn't a statement on any technological advances or anything but rather a pure marketing blitz. Hmmm. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2009 : 10:54:04
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Well, isn't Google's OS expected late next year? And Win7 is out this year. Regardless, I'm not the type of user who appreciates everything being wired together and online all the time (I'm just waiting for Ray Bradbury's technodystopia to come true ), and between what Microsoft and Google have planned for the world, I don't know...(Maybe netbooks are the first step towards global human domination by the AI!) But I digress.
I don't believe Google's OS will be a Windows killer for the simple reason of inertia. It will, assuming better usability than stereotypical Linux builds, force a pricing war, which is better for consumers, I guess. I'm sure Chrome will get a big chunk of the netbook market in the future, but the problem I have is predicting what the "netbook" market will look like by the time Chrome makes it to the table. Are we aiming for full subnotebook-"netbook" conflation by that time? (Though honestly, I haven't been following the subnotebook market either so I don't know what's cooking on that end. I just don't see much technological innovation happening except for what's in that over-$5k thing I saw at Dynamism, such as the LED screen, which will obviously take many more years to become viable in the mass market.)
Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the e-book reader market to fully mature. Electronic ink is so much easier on one's eyes... |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2009 : 23:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
This is a benchmark in the history of portable PCs - the day we see a Fujitsu 10" priced at under $1000. The reverberation of this could have far reaching consequences....
Fujitsu, then Sony - it would follow that Apple would try something next....
China report forecasts $800 Apple Netbook (which would effectively redefine the $500 cost parameter of the category....) http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/13/apple-touchscreen-netbook-to-launch-in-october-at-800/ |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 10:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
quote:
Originally posted by NigelS
This is a benchmark in the history of portable PCs - the day we see a Fujitsu 10" priced at under $1000. The reverberation of this could have far reaching consequences....
Fujitsu, then Sony - it would follow that Apple would try something next....
China report forecasts $800 Apple Netbook (which would effectively redefine the $500 cost parameter of the category....) http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/13/apple-touchscreen-netbook-to-launch-in-october-at-800/
Well, if anything, Apple is merely maintaining its reputation for being "more expensive." "Better" isn't much of an argument these days. I suppose the stretch feature for that price point is the touch screen, which will keep it a niche product. (That's neither good nor bad, but I don't think it will do anything to the average base netbook price of $400-500 without touch screen.) I mean, $800 is still very close to $1k not including tax, so at best this Apple "netbook" would increase the top end acceptable price range defining the segment. I really doubt any fundamental shift will occur, and it seems to me that Sony is admitting its mistake in the poor form factor + price point on that silly Bling Book by falling more "in line" with the accepted average (although that might depend on whether they were just planning a line extension and that Bling book is actually doing well--which I hope it isn't).
The fact is that the economy is still in a pinch, and when it comes right down to it, the consumer is after dollar power in a purchase. Until more sales figures come out this summer, I really doubt the market landscape will have changed much with the addition of more expensive netbooks. Well, we'll see. I still think "business netbook" is an oxymoron, but maybe that's where the subnotebook rebirth actually is at. |
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nomo
Average Member
808 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 18:51:50
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A price premium would be justified if Apple uses a more powerful processor than the Atom, but $800 isn't much cheaper than the MacBook Mini. I'm curious whether the new device will be a slate, convertible, or laptop with touchscreen (like the Fujitsu B-series).
I agree that the Sony Vaio P pricing is unrealistic, but I like the form factor. If it had a high end Atom chip (not available in the USA) and a less compressed display the Vaio P would be pretty close to what I was seeking 18 months ago when the only choice for small portable computers was the P1610 or the first generation Linux EEE PC. No way I'd pay $2k for it, though.
The Sony netbook has a nice aesthetic, but HP seems to be better positioned as the "business notebook" maker. Maybe Sony plans to use its traditional market positioning (i.e. pretty status symbol) to target executives who want to flaunt their newly-found fiscal responsibility in these troubled economic times. By the way, you can tell the economy is bad when Chinese netbooks are getting knocked off: Keepin' it real fake, part CCXXV: Fashion A10 netbook strikes a pose, Acer-style |
Edited by - nomo on 07/15/2009 19:00:19 |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 22:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by nomo
A price premium would be justified if Apple uses a more powerful processor than the Atom, but $800 isn't much cheaper than the MacBook Mini. I'm curious whether the new device will be a slate, convertible, or laptop with touchscreen (like the Fujitsu B-series).
I agree that the Sony Vaio P pricing is unrealistic, but I like the form factor. If it had a high end Atom chip (not available in the USA) and a less compressed display the Vaio P would be pretty close to what I was seeking 18 months ago when the only choice for small portable computers was the P1610 or the first generation Linux EEE PC. No way I'd pay $2k for it, though.
The Sony netbook has a nice aesthetic, but HP seems to be better positioned as the "business notebook" maker. Maybe Sony plans to use its traditional market positioning (i.e. pretty status symbol) to target executives who want to flaunt their newly-found fiscal responsibility in these troubled economic times. By the way, you can tell the economy is bad when Chinese netbooks are getting knocked off: Keepin' it real fake, part CCXXV: Fashion A10 netbook strikes a pose, Acer-style
I think you're right about HP there. (But the comment about Sony being an exec status symbol--I had to chuckle when I imagined a bunch of old white men proudly taking out their bling-books, traded from their private jets, only to find out that they couldn't see a damn thing on the tiny screens. )
At first I was going to guffaw about the Chinese-ripping-of-Chinese, but Acer is actually a Taiwanese company, so it's not an illogical stretch for communist China to blackmarket their stuff. I do wonder where the Acer factories are, though; knowing their political histories, it would be weird for them to have extensive trade agreements, but maybe that's the case, and then maybe the rip-offs are actually from the same factory. |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2009 : 20:57:41
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Netbooks to be kicked out by "CULVs"?
I wasn't expecting this:
http://www.slashgear.com/intel-push-for-culv-ultra-thin-adoption-over-netbooks-1649590/
Well, once again, it's a marketing push by Intel with another coined term by Intel. "Consumer ultra-low voltage"? These are, apparently, just "ultra-thin" notebooks. ....Okay. I don't see any technological advances here, or maybe they're just too new. There might be a price hook like the "netbook" segment has, but it doesn't seem to be a defining factor. Maybe if they're 12" and 12 hours standard battery life, I'd be more interested.
Where and when will all of this marketing hoopla overlap and conflate with the traditional subnotebooks that were around for, like, a decade?  |
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nomo
Average Member
808 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 10:42:16
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The CULV series is also known as Core 2 Solo. The 45nm chips feature 1.2GHz (SU3300) or 1.4GHz (SU3500) CPU speed, 800MHz FSB, 3MB L2 cache, and 5.5W TDP. It appears to be a single core version of the 10W C2D chips used in ultra-portable laptops. The primary advantages are better battery life than a C2D and more processing capability than an Atom. The MSI Slim X340 with a 5.5W 1.4GHz SU3500 C2S obtained about the same PCMark05 score as a Fujitsu T2010 with 10W 1.2GHz ULV7600 C2D (2337 versus 2334 PC Marks, respectively). So the current generation C2S provides the same performance as the previous generation C2D but consumes less power.
Whether CULV processors get used in "ultra-thin" laptops is up to the PC makers. A number of 13" and 14" laptops are currently available with the Core 2 Solo CPUs and sell for $600 and up. The chips would provide an interesting upgrade path for netbooks.
Given that consumers are starting to understand the performance limitations of the Atom, it's understandable that Intel would promote a more powerful alternative. The next generation Atom won't be available until Q1 2010 (PCWatch via bjorn3d). The Atom N450 is rumored to have 1.66GHz clockspeed, 512k cache, 667MHz DDR2, 4W TDP, and an integrated 200MHz GPU. |
Edited by - nomo on 07/19/2009 12:22:37 |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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oion
Advanced Member
USA
2230 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2009 : 16:02:53
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Actually, one big benefit of the "netbook" market to the old school subnotebook consumers is that there are now far more small-sized laptop cases and bags.
It only took a few years, but I finally found a minimalist "netbook" case that fits my Fujitsu P-7230 perfectly and matches my requirements! Four cases later, I'm pretty happy with this. It reminds me of Fujitsu's custom P-2120 case. |
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NigelS
Senior Member Member
Canada
1339 Posts |
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Netbooks have arrived
